If this person thinks SHARPE is a new series by a new author, he has no business running the Book Clubs.

As one who has run my own shop websites for 6 years, as well as being a shareowner in a multi-dealer internet listing service I can tell you that the only way in which Amazon would ever become "dominant" is with the (ongoing) help of the publishers.

Waterstone's should never have affiliated with Amazon anymore than they should have shut-down their out-of-print search service.

I really want Waterstone's to survive and prosper ; hopefully they will realise that they haven't a cat in hell's chance if they want to enter book discount wars with Amazon and Tesco, both of whom have other sources of income.

From a book buying perspective I have o say I like Waterstones
It looks and feels nice to browse on!
I do have the issue I have with many sites, no currency flexibility. That is very annoying.
One problem that they should look at resolving is that the deeper you go on the site within a category, the less coherence it has. This is particularly obvious for topics with wide breath liek history or politics. perhaps a tagging feature would be useful.
I would note that this is a problem on almost all shopping sites even amazon which comes closest to resolving it.
Eoin

Clive, I disagree (as usual!). Amazon will become dominant if they continue to serve their customers as well as they do and nobody competes with them. What publishers do by way of discount terms to them is trivial compared with these other factors. Tesco didn't dominate the UK High Street through getting better tyerms from farmers than Sainsbury - they did it through understanding and serving their customers. R

Richard

It might surprise you to know that I often hear some terrible reports from Amazon's new book purchasers. Slowly but surely, some customers are shunning Amazon and returning to the terrestial bookshops.

Amazon are only becoming dominant because some publishers have not looked to the long term dangers of supplying Amazon on considerably more favourable terms than those offered to Bertram Books and other major wholesalers who supply the bulk of the stock to the terrestial (independent) bookshops.

Customers in indie bookshops can get most books supplied within the 24 hr business day : those who order via Amazon rely upon a (slow) Royal Mail packet post delivery. "We" can beat the Basin hands down on supply : but since "turnover is vanity, profit is sanity" and "we" do not have (listing) revenue from third-party sellers to counter-balance any trading losses on new books, we cannot discount in the same manner as Amazon.

Amazon aims at world dominance. Waterstone's deserved to end up bankrupt when they signed that affiliation with Amazon : some publishers deserve to visit Carey Street with the special terms which they are offering exclusively to Amazon.

Farming, and supply terms to the likes of Tesco vis a vis Sainsbury and Waitrose : I wouldn't raise that question in Cornwall or even a few places here in Somerset. Sainsbury are cuddly bunnies compared to Tesco.

From the readers' point of view, Waterstone's before, as a "subsidiary" of Amazon, was pointless and redundant.

Now, they have their own site.

Shocking, really.

Highlighted books bring on more highlighted books, in accordance with their own idea of "what will sell".

Some say "so good", but really, it's a marketing man's domain.

It's bland at best; I'll stick with Amazon for ordering and "friendly recommendations" for the rest.

Clive, You say: 'Amazon aims at world dominance. Waterstone's deserved to end up bankrupt when they signed that affiliation with Amazon : some publishers deserve to visit Carey Street with the special terms which they are offering exclusively to Amazon.' Get real. Amazon is a business not a political movement. Publishers trade with customers on terms they see fit and which fit their economic model. Sometimes they get them wrong but there's no reason to think that Amazon gets exclusively good terms.

My beef with Amazon is that they need to simplify product URLs. The things are too damn complicated. That aside, their site is a lot easy to get around in than most other shopping sites I've been to.

With a few bothersome exceptions Amazon understands that they are dealing with people. Not computers, not tech geeks, people. That's how you keep customers coming back.

Richard, thanks for the publishing updates and the turning the corner part caught my eye. Is that a general trend currently in your opinion? Also, do you see improved readers coming onto the market -- as a tool for online books?

Ellen, I don't think I'm a luddite but I don't see electronic reading devices as a significant market - at least not for ages - for general interest books. Of course professional reading material has already migrated to digital delivery and handheld devices (as opposed to desk screens) would be sensible although I suspect the best device will be an adapted mobile phone rather than a stand-alone lump of metal. The exception might be if e-paper develops as is promised whereby one could carry one 'book' but could change the contents of each page by downloading a new text. But none of these solutions has the tactile, collectible and giveable characteristics of a book. My own view is that the killer technology to improve book availability and the business itself will be high-speed, high-quality, low-cost print on demand. This would allow a huge simplification of the distribution chain whereby electrons rather paper would be distributed and the final product created at the point of sale. No freight. No returns. Instant availability. No stock. It's a few years away but 'few' is not a large number.

Richard

Amazon are the Walmart of the internet : they seek world (trade) domimance. Those publishers which trade with Amazon to the cost of the terrestial bookshops are placing themselves in a strange position.

Some publishers appear to treat current titles as though they were infantry on the Somme or Verdun in 1916, cannon fodder : a world where junior officers had a life span of six weeks at the front, much the same as the time in which some titles are expected to succeed before they are dumped.

In my own small business I am able to enlighten and guide some publishers away from the consignment internet houses which demand far greater discount than those offered to *all* the terrestial bookshops : discounts which are uneconomic unless the notional rrp price is inflated to cover additional discount and promo co-op sweeteners to the likes of Amazon.

Publishers will trade with whom they please, and so will the terrestial indie bookshops. I purchase very few Macmillan titles as stock items because I am sick to the back teeth when I see them promoted on the Basin at between 40% and 50% discount : these titles seldom have long-term shelf-life, they are the 2nd lieutenants of 2006.

Thank goodness we live in a world where you are free to buy and sell to whomsoever you please and so are we. I'm told that you don't even have an account with us which speaks volumes. Is there an inverse relationship bewteen noise generated by a retailer and the sales achieved?

>>Thank goodness we live in a world where you are free to buy and sell to whomsoever you please and so are we. I'm told that you don't even have an account with us which speaks volumes. Is there an inverse relationship bewteen noise generated by a retailer and the sales achieved?<<

Well me darling you could try asking those selected publishers with whom I do have accounts : I expect they'll tell you its none of your frigging business.

How the fuck would you have any idea about the sales generated by most indie bookshops when they often deal via wholesalers and not direct ?

Me thinks that my strong words about (Macmillan) deals with Amazon are rather too close for comfort.

It's impossible to have a rational discussion with someone with an irrational position so I won't continue trying.

Richard, as usual you appear to want it both ways. On the one hand you say that Crockatt and Powell are not worth opening an account for, yet you complain that Clive doesn't have one.

At the same time you continue to dodge the question of wholesaler supply.

Just a thought.

Jonathan

As far as I know C and P do have an account with us. I haven't dodged anything. What is the question of wholesale supply? Nothing wrong with it. The wholesalers are very efficient. What i don't want to do is to end up in a slanging match with an irascible and irrational independent bookseller. It's a waste of his time, my time and I cannot imagine it is of any interest to anyone.

Richard,

There will be no slanging match with me for I have far more productive matters with which to occupy my time : however, the facts are clear

1) Macmillan are prepared to offer special terms to Amazon which are to the detriment of sales in the independent booktrade.

2) Most independent bookshops purchase a large percentage of their inventory via the wholesalers and do not need individual accounts with every publisher ; sadly some publishers are prepared to offer Amazon preferential terms which are not offered to the wholesalers such as Bertram.

As an independent bookshop owner I only have accounts with suppliers who are prepared to work towards *our* joint long-term business prospects.

We think the Waterstone's website is rather excellent. Visually very clean, sharp and easy to use - curse them! (Though not quite as funky as ours). However, I can't help but wonder just why they've bothered. (erm, horse, door, bolted?)

A quick look at amazon.co.uk's homepage - top right, first advert - 'Everday Essentials, from shaving accessories to toothbrush heads' Mmm. I think Amazon worked out pretty quick there wasn't money in book retailing online and they've diversified pretty darn quick. Also, all the money made from their Marketplace allows them to make the cuts to the books that makes them appealing loss-leaders. As in a Tesco, place a few high profile goodies front of house then clean up on organic veggies and tins of beans. Simple really.

Waterstone's is a dedicated, single item retailer and a bloody good one at that. People go there to browse and ask questions. There are dedicated book buyers out there who love the 'tactile, collectible and giveable quality of the book'

What we've heard over and over from our customers after we've tried to tell them about our searchable and orderable website (faster than Amazon btw) is that they don't want to use it, they like coming into the shop. Isn't this Waterstone's strength? Why are they undercutting their own market on a posh looking website that pushes the same old guff for half price? It just feels that they've really missed an opportunity here to do something different with a books website. Don't ask me what but it is a question we're addressing with ours. Once the contract with the web template supplier we used is up we'll be looking to make significant changes to our web presence.

As it is, the web feels like a bit of a red herring. Yes it has taken a chunk of terrestrial sales but to be honest the terrestrial retailers needed the boot up the arse to re-examine what it is they are all about (not you guys Clive and Jon - you know the ones I'm on about) I think this is just a cyclical thing. Every ten years or so something happens to shake things up.

There is a notion that if you have a website then everything will be ok but it is the content of the site that is important. I've bought online twice recently - pcworld and debenhams and both times I wish I'd just gone into the shop, so much less hastle. I haven't used Amazon for anything for a lot longer than I've been a small retailer. The only thing I buy online now is music that is downloaded directly to my computer and instantly usable.

As far as the whole discounting thread continues... well, you know our feelings. What does seem clear to us though is that publishers have lost a lot of confidence, focus and belief in what they are publishing. We've seen nearly all the biggies now and their christmas lists are pretty disheartening. With a few notable exceptions it really feels like they are publishing what they think they ought to be rather than what they really believe in. And what happened to Editors?

However, all this may change as we are seeing a Macmillan rep this afternoon (thanks Richard. Trickle down from the top?) However, as I write there has been an explosion at Waterloo station so we might not have a shop left...

Oh, as examples here are 3 book websites I really like:

http://www.harvard.com/
http://www.calderpublications.com/
http://www.lrbshop.co.uk/

All nice and tight, focused sites. I try to be positive too...

We saw John Lee (Macmillan rep) in a curry house near the shop while it was closed 'cos of a security alert.

He has to be among the finest reps in the trade - a real shame he is soon to retire to Ireland where he will concentrate on writing his own books. (Military history)

I think face to face is where it's at. Call me old fashioned but people are designed to work face to face. All this computer lark is a bit of a red herring. (Even Richard came to see us in person after our recent slanging match!)

Technology changes - people don't.

It wasn't created to advance Proprietary software businesses, it wasn't created to advance the aims of the OSI, it was created to give advantage to end users (by “end-users” I mean *everyone* that is not a proprietary software company). It was created to advance the aims of the *FSF*.