Chark Blog - Potpourri

Thursday, August 17, 2006

Just back in London from the Cairo day trip (where I failed even to glimpse the pyramids) and a few miscellaneous items.

1. Someone will be able to make a lot of money by working out how to have Egyptian hotels, restaurants and cafes serve decent espresso. I'm told that it's something to do with the water but really...

2. An Egyptian author asked how best to get her book sold in the UK given that wholesalers and retailers weren't in the least bit interested in Egyptian Homes and so it is only available through the online bookseller which I'm not allowed to mention. Do have a look at the website - it's very special.

3. And from Egypt back to an excellent interview about our burgeoning medical publishing arm, Nature Clinical Practice.

4. Tracy Hofman has written an interesting piece (apart from the fact that she describes me as silver-haired - accurate but do I need to be reminded?) on blogging. She can't see why I bother to do this blog and sometimes I wonder too. However, the original reason which still stands is that our IT department were getting fed up with my internal email newsletter clogging up the Macmillan servers. The blog solved that issue at least. And if you want to know more about corporate blogging I see that Piatkus publishers are offering a free download chapter from Debbie Weil's new book The corporate Blogging Book (it presumably does what it says on the tin).

5 and finally,phew. I can't resist pasting in the attached press release from Wisden which suggests that A&C Black have done a great sales job, MDL an excellent distribution effort, Matthew Engel a brilliant editorial tour de force and the England team - thank you for the Ashes and the extra sales.

This year’s edition of Wisden Cricketer’s Almanack has seen record sales, and the standard hardback version is to be reprinted for the first time since 1982. The Almanack, which has been published every year since 1864, is an annual bestseller and is described as “the most famous sports book in the world”.

Wisden 2006 records the 2005 Ashes, which it describes as the greatest-ever Test series. The Ashes factor has clearly boosted sales, just as it did 24 years ago when Wisden 1982 featured the series known as “Botham’s Ashes”. Since then Wisden has revamped its format to include more top-class writing, pictures and the quirky facts cricket followers love. Gavyn Davies, in The Guardian, called Wisden 2006 “the best edition ever”, while in The Spectator, Frank Keating described it as “the most compelling must-have for many years”.

This year, for the first time, Wisden published a large-format edition as an alternative to the standard hardback and soft-cover versions. Combined sales of all three has reached 50,000, nearly 20% up on recent years and far ahead of recorded sales for previous editions.

Christopher Lane, Wisden’s managing director, commented “One of the articles in this year’s Wisden asks whether the Ashes boom is real. Sales of Wisden suggest that it certainly is. Our challenge now is to convert those new readers into Wisden collectors. And to achieve that we are striving to make next year’s edition even better.”

October sees the publication of the Wisden Anthology 1978–2006, covering the best of the Almanack from the past three decades. This is a long-awaited sequel to the highly successful Wisden anthologies published in four volumes in the early 1980s.

For further information please contact Christopher Lane on 01420 83415 or e-mail: chris.lane@wisdengroup.com

8/17/2006 2:04:11 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

A good Espresso in Cairo can be a challenge, but thankfully Cairo has some very unsual coffee shops including the surreal Sun Coffeeshop

http://www.egyptmyway.com/articles/secret_in_coffee.html

Crawford

8/17/2006 2:54:39 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

"Egyptian Homes" ISBN 9781412076760 at £75 from Trafford Publishing - the same price as on the Basin where they state it is p/b rather than h/b - is IMVHO pitched at too high an (asking) sales price.

As a dealer and stockist of quality titles - especially art, antiques and architecture - I have encountered customer resistance for most titles priced over £45.

Although the title is not offered as a stock item from Bertram's (the indies wholesaler), "Egyptian Homes" does show as available to Special Order - with appropriate delivery schedule.

Clive Keeble

8/17/2006 8:57:03 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Tracy Hofman asks why you can`t just keep a diary. But a blog IS a diary.
And anyway, The Guardian refers to you as one of the Three Top Established Bloggers. (Modesty prevenys my mentioning the name of one of the others.....)
What beats me is why people complain about you blogging or anyone else blogging for that matter - just as they complain about television programmes. They don`t have to watch those. Nor do they have to read your blog, or mine, or anyone else`s if they don`t want to.
Honestly.

SUSAN HILL

8/18/2006 7:08:07 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Wisden 2006 snipped
>>Combined sales of all three has reached 50,000, nearly 20% up on recent years and far ahead of recorded sales for previous editions.<<

Well, somebody really should make a public comment, so I guess I might as well put my head above the parapet.

Wisden 2006 launched on Amazon at 60% discount : the year following "our" Ashes victory this title was certain to sell in record numbers, indeed one would have expected a total sell-out within weeks.

Many indie bookshops who watch the degree to which publishers are prepared to do deals with Amazon decided, albeit reluctantly, not to stock Wisden 2006.

There is an old business saying "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity". To increase sales by 20% when the title was so heavily discounted with one merchandiser I believe is not the sort of marketing effort which deserves awarding of spin doctor's gongs.

Clive Keeble

8/18/2006 10:17:37 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

The managing director of John Wisden has sent me these words in response to Clive's sad comment above. It really is sad that a piece of unequivocally good news for an independent publisher working through booksellers in a traditional area of interest should be trashed like this - but that's life.

'Clive Keeble, is, of course, entitled to his views, but they do seem to have
been made on the basis of some erroneous presumptions.

1. I agree entirely that with the adage "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity".
Mr Keeble's quoting of this saying suggests that he thinks Wisden have
been conducting a vain pursuit of turnover. This is not the case, and I am
pleased to say that Wisden 2006 has seen a significant increase in profit
alongside the increase in sales this year.

2. I have great sympathy with independent booksellers in the current market,
but Mr Keeble appears slightly paranoid about publishers dealings with
Amazon. Some publishers may be guilty of his suspicions, but not all.
Wisden's sales representatives are happy to do fair and sensible deals with
all booksellers, from Amazon to the smallest independent. We are very
happy with the deal they did with Amazon, and the terms of deal are almost
certainly not as generous to Amazon as I think Mr Keeble presumes. Rather
than turn his back on Wisden, I suggest he talks to Wisden's sales
representatives. He could be pleasantly surprised at the terms he may be
offered.

I should also point out that Wisden does not seek any spin-doctor gongs for
its business successes. We seek only the satisfaction of publishing the best
possible product, meeting our targets, and maintaining the health of an
independent business which has survived for 156 years.'

richard charkin

8/18/2006 10:39:00 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Wisden is an utterly unique product with no competition. For 150 or so years it survived by dictating it's terms to retailers who had no choice but to accept them. That could still be the case.

'What is undeniable is that publishers make life difficult for themselves. Cinemas don’t offer discounted prices for the latest Harry Potter film, so why do publishers allow booksellers to discount their bestselling titles?'

From an article by David Miller in yesterdays Times

Jonathan Main

8/18/2006 11:12:32 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

The answer to the question posed by David Miller is unbelievably simple. Publishers are not allowed by law to impose fixed prices on retailers. I'm no expert on cinema tickets but my understanding is that nearly all cinemas discount from the original prices as set at the launch in the West End.

richard charkin

8/18/2006 11:37:01 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

From the comments by the Managing Director, Wisden
>>I have great sympathy with independent booksellers in the current market,
but Mr Keeble appears slightly paranoid about publishers dealings with Amazon.<<

No, I am not paranoid ; however, since I trade from a very rural area where customers have for generations purchased by mail order rather than going and visiting the big city, in the manner of a good military campaigner I am going to surveil the enemy (AZ).

Some publishers are prepared to protect the value of their new books ; it is with these publishers which independent bookshops like myself will increasingly be doing business.

It true that Wisden, or any publisher, cannot (by law) demand that titles are sold at full cover, but there are many ways in which they can ensure that merchandisers such as Amazon are not given free licence to discount by upwards of 50%.

Clive Keeble

8/18/2006 7:18:55 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Susan,

If some people had no occasion to complain, they would have no reason to live. So instead of relying on the rare legitimate reason, they will invent opportunities.

And it doesn't have to be about events or items which have occured or which exist, what is yet to be can be complained about too.

Witness the reaction to "Snakes on a Plane", a movie that has yet to be released. (Or has just been released as I write. I don't keep track of such things.) People complained when they first heard of the movie, because they were certain it has to be crap.

In my own (a)vocation there are those who react predictably to the announcement of a new product. So predictably one can say with assurance just who among the detractors will say what, when they will say it, and what real knowledge of the product they will have when they pan it.

It comes down to a need to hurt others and seem important.

Alan Kellogg

8/18/2006 10:35:25 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Oh well, might as well wade in...

Yes Richard you are not an expert in cinema ticket pricing. In the west end tickets are pricey. In areas where people are less well off tickets are cheaper. During the day when most people are at work and the cinema is empty tickets are cheaper. I do not have a problem with this. 'Landlords' always charge what they think they'll get for the area they're in.

Returning to books, in Chelsea (an area you know well) people have more money than sense so let them drop £25 for an inconsequential hardback. In Waterloo, where I trade and where money actually means something to people I'd be happy to see the same book at £15. Across the board discounting across the country seems amateurish and not really grasping the fundamentals of book retailing. Maybe book prices should be index-linked to house prices. Just a suggestion.

And again I'll echo Johnathan and Clive. Why are we taking our sure fire winners across the board and making them loss leaders. I'm sure Wisden got a good deal out of Amazon that ensured their profitability for another year and good on 'em. This is business after all. But surely Amazon's prime business goal is to put as many terrestrial bookshops out of business as is possible. Because only after putting the competition out of business can they start hiking their own prices to start making serious money. Let's be honest, the consumer is not the target here. All this talk about consumer choice and selection is utter bollox. The point is to put the other guy out of business so you're in charge. And charge more.

Books have value. Or rather the content within a book has value. And this is worth money (the only trading value we have) By undercutting a books value we undercut the whole bloody industry. (I'm talking UK popular retail here Richard, not your business of selling textbooks to India and China and Egypt etc.)

And finally one of your commenters mentioned the absence of the Net Book Agreement. I would like to suggest that in the last year there has been a development of a De Facto Net Book Agreement between publishers and retailers. As an independent retailer seeing reps from the big publishers I have noticed some curious pricing of new titles. Publishers are artificially hiking their cover prices in the expectation of retailers discounts. Books that appear a 'bargain' to the punter are nothing of the sort. '£7 Off' only means that the book should have been £7 cheaper in the first place. Retailers will be offering books maybe a pound cheaper than their rivals but not actually losing any money because the retailers have put the price artificially high. As an independent I can only look on and despair. Luckily there are plenty of small and interesting publishers out there that will appeal to our literate and discerning customers who don't mess around with pricing in the vain hope a big retailer will pick them and push them.

Books in the genre ranges are becoming the same price across the board. NBA? Book discounting is becoming more homogenous. NBA? We're not idiots.

Please don't think you are doing us any favours.

adam

8/19/2006 8:47:48 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Adam, Very strange. Someone says that books should not be discounted and says that cinema tickets never are. I say that cinema tickets are discounted. You say I am wrong and then go on to show that cinema tickets are indeed discounted an dthat books should be too - in line with local market conditions. Fair enough.And then overt or covert attacks on Chelsea, Amazon, discounting, non-discounting, big publishers, blah blah. I agree with the absurdity of over-discounting sure-fire winners and your views on the value of books but I bet you know absolutely zero about the economics of publishing. I know very little about the economics of bookselling and therefore don't sound off on it.
Incidentally we sell very few textbooks TO India, China etc. We publish books in those countries for the students and public of those countries.

richard charkin

8/19/2006 9:50:03 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Re cinema prices. The clue is in your line 'nearly all cinemas discount from the original prices as set at the launch in the West End.'

As is the case with almost any other product the launch price is the optimum and only later traded down.

Still it's good to see you finally agreeing 'with the absurdity of over-discounting sure-fire winners.'

So what's over-discounting then, if not, less than half price on launch day?

Jonathan Main

8/19/2006 2:55:05 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

You're right I do know very little about the economics of publishing but what I do know is that reps from Penguin, Faber, Random House etc. have been showing me new titles that are a sudden and above-inflation leap on the cover pricing of books from last year and which consequently I won't be able to sell. Can you explain that to me? I would honestly like to know if there is an alternative explanation to one of artificially priced books to counter excessive discounting. Or is it a publishing secret?

And I didn't say that cinema tickets are discounted. I said they are priced differently in different areas. Different thing entirely. Like Sainsburys will sell a sandwich in a Local shop for 20p more than one of their big supermarkets. At the big supermarket they don't put a sticker on saying 20p off normal price. At the Peckham Premiere they don't advertise their tickets as £3 off West End prices. Discounting in bookshops is to give the impression of a bargain. Pricing based on location is just reacting to the local market. West End prices are high because thats the price they can get for them.

My point, still, is that I'm seeing books with a cover price of £25 that will be 'discounted' to £15 when they shouldn't have been any more than £15 in the first place. I say price the book at £15 for most of us and let the Booksellers in Chelsea put a £10 mark-up on it because the rent is so bloody high. As nobody from Chelsea seems to venture out of their little bubble they wouldn't notice the difference anyway. In fact, don't put a price on the book at all just negotiate a selling price to each individual bookseller and let them sell it for what they can get.

ps It was an overt attack on Chelsea. I have met 5 times as many interesting and decent people in Waterloo in 5 months than I did 5 years working in Chelsea. Most of the 'rich' people I came across there treat you like the staff and assume you're not as clever as them because you're not as wealthy and you're on the wrong side of the till. I've had 1 arsehole customer in 7 months. In Chelsea you were guaranteed one a day. And it was an overt attack on Amazon. Do you think for a second that the execs at Amazon HQ don't want to put me out of business (if they knew I existed)?

adam

8/19/2006 3:01:48 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Come to think of it if you know very little about the economics of bookselling why do Macmillan set a cover price? Shouldn't that be my job?

adam

8/19/2006 3:31:34 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Sorry, you're probably tired of me by now but I've got a train of thought going...

Books are the only retail item I can think of apart from sandwiches that come with a pre-printed cover price indelibly attatched to the object.

Dvd's don't, CD's don't, Cans of coke don't, Duvets from Debenhams don't (I know cos I've just bought one), furniture doesn't, clothes don't, coffee doesn't, tv's don't...

All other parts of the retail business set their own price for everything in store. There are no rrp's. Why books? Any ideas? I kind of like the idea of losing the rrp actually. What do you think? I can certainly guess why...

And if we continue the cinema analogy, Universal or Paramount or Disney doesn't release a film with a recommended ticket price. As a publisher or producer of content shouldn't you do the same?

adam

8/19/2006 3:56:34 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Adam

Why should Richard get fed up with your comments : they would be seconded by nearly every free thinking bookseller in this country.

The trade is sick to the back teeth with the rampant cover-price inflation from the large publishers so that they just might be able to do a deal with a corporate merchandiser which will in turn allow them to offer a super duper discount and still make a few pence profit.

I would dearly love to have stocked "Daughter of the Desert" by Georgina Howell pub by Macmillan and discounted on release on AZ by 50% to a penny less than half-cover.

Did publishers John Murray do a deal with AZ over "Trains & Buttered Toast" by John Betjeman. Of course they didn't because it was a sure fire seller at £14.99. If my memory serves me right the initial supply on Amazon was with only 10% discount to the public and a few days longer than 24 hr delivery : true it now shows at 34% discount, but then that is the general discount on AZ before adding postal charges (and waiting for delivery)

I might not know anything about publishing economics but I do know when some suppliers are making themselves the laughing stock of the retail world in the manner that they are whoring themselves to any corporate lover.

Clive Keeble

8/19/2006 4:37:56 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Gosh, you lot can certainly get your anger up pretty easily!

richard charkin

8/19/2006 6:36:34 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

>Gosh, you lot can certainly get your anger up pretty easily!<

Yes, indie booksellers have more spunk and attrition than the current England cricket XI.

Clive Keeble

8/19/2006 7:25:43 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Clive

We've had our disagreements before but thanks for this one. Independent booksellers will never form a union but it's nice to know I'm not always the lone gunman in the clock tower now and again.

So, Richard what do YOU think? Ditch the RRP? I had a big discussion with my fellow company director about it. Initially he was all in favour of keeping it but I think I may have talked him round...

adam

8/19/2006 8:11:03 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

I think this argument is almost entirely futile. There are much bigger issues around. Frankly this correspondence has confirmed my belief that the independent book trade is in danger of bringing on its own demise.The minor question of RRP is a function of author contracts as much as retail realities.

Fingers crossed that England can develop some batting stickiness tomorrow.

richard charkin

8/19/2006 9:57:08 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

It's not futile to me sunshine. Publishers are pricing me out of a number of christmas sales. Tell me why it is futile. Explain yourself.

Lets hope that publishers and England can grow some balls tomorrow.

adam

8/20/2006 5:18:00 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Well as far as I'm concerned it's about value and not price.

People don't shop with us cos we are cheap they shop with us because we offer something that they value - a lovely shop with a well chosen selection of good books. Add customer service, pointing out titles we think individuals we have come to know might like, events etc - You'll never get that from Amazon or Tesco.

If capitalism was completely inhuman there would be no independent bookshops. But people make value judgements...to grab a phrase from the corporate world we need to be "worth it".

Night night...

cpmatthew

8/20/2006 6:19:33 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Whether or not prices are printed on books, whether or not prices are recommended by publishers or not, whether or not som epublishers give slightly better terms to one customer or group of customers are all things which will be sorted out by market economics - and frankly won't make much difference one way or another. Every market (USA, Australia, Germany, Italy, India) has a raft of similar issues dealt with in slightly different ways. But some things are common - the emergence of the Internet as a convenient shopping channel for may people, the growing impact of digital delivery of information etc. Dealing with these issues is the challenge and hence arguing about whether or not to ditch RRP is either futile or trivial - IMVHO.

richard charkin

8/20/2006 6:59:52 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

This discussion was prompted by the release on Amazon of Wisden 2006 at 60% discount. The MD from Wisden says that I ,as a small trader, could have been given a "sensible" deal from the company reps.

There are certain premium (booktrade) products which I sell in my rural shop which have only a small discount : since these are unique items I am prepared to accept the suppliers terms (these would be items available at little or no discount through the general distributors).

Wisden 2006 could have been one such item. IMVHO the cover price was unneccessarily inflated to permit the "sensible" deals which Wisden reps were prepared to offer, to me as a small trader and to Amazon as a corporate consignment merchandiser.

Wisden 2006 is not part of the UK staple diet : it is a unique premium product which most experienced traders would be prepared to carry (at firm sale) if the differential discounts had not been made so that merchandisers like Amazon could offer at 60% discount (post-paid).

The publishing industry seems incapable of accepting that premium books are not widgets ; to be traded on differential discounts as though they were cases of tinned beans or tomatoes.

Clive Keeble

8/20/2006 11:08:16 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

I'm sorry Richard but nothing you have said so far has been an adequate illustration of your belief that:

'Frankly this correspondence has confirmed my belief that the independent book trade is in danger of bringing on its own demise.'

(although it's a fantastic get out clause for publishing isn't - we did it to ourselves! - how so?)

I would really, really like to know how in your opinion we are going to avoid our own demise.

Or is it really just a case that actually you couldn't give a stuff about us anyway?

Jonathan Main

8/20/2006 7:55:36 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Jonathan, I can't even begin to write what I think. If you really care what I think give me a call.

richard charkin

8/21/2006 5:58:14 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

>>Jonathan, I can't even begin to write what I think. If you really care what I think give me a call.<<

Richard,

How on earth can you make such a cop-out comment ? No public comments ; come on be bold. The independent booktrade is not the domain of wimps who cannot stand criticism : we are working lengthy hours seven days a week, not just to keep our market share, but to try and ensure that we regain many customers who have been induced - by loss-leading cherries - to purchase via corporate merchandising outlets.

Mr Charkin, we are determined not to be destroyed by the marketing methods of some corporate publishers.

The indie bookshops are run by some very determined entrepeneurs : we might be opinionated, but then somebody has to care about the long-term prospects for the terrestial quality booktrade.

Clive Keeble

8/21/2006 10:13:03 AM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

'Whether or not prices are printed on books, whether or not prices are recommended by publishers or not, whether or not som epublishers give slightly better terms to one customer or group of customers are all things which will be sorted out by market economics - and frankly won't make much difference one way or another.'

This is the statement of a bean counter. If you genuinely think that I think the removal of the rrp will somehow magically make me a uber-successful bookseller then you are mistaken.

As an indie I have no interest in rolling out a chain of bookshops across the land. Frankly, more than one shop would be a handful and it's not the reason I got into this. I do, however, value the relationship with my customers - a small and loyal base. This relationship is NOT trivial or futile. Everything we do in our shop is controlled by us for the benefit of creating an environment for our customers - as Matthew said above. But there is one striking part of the business where I don't have control - price. As far as I'm concerned a pre-decided price on a book is a small but very important wedge between me and the customer. When a customer winces at a price and I say 'I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do about that' then damage is done to that relationship - and my business.

To an accountant dealing with multi-million pound turnovers then maybe these small differences don't register but here on the shop floor where we're operating in the sharpest of margins and where all we have is our face-to-face relationship with our customers it is of huge importance.

I guess I just don't like relinquishing control of an important part of MY business to a group of people who a) as you've just demonstrated aren't really interested and b) as you've just demonstrated don't really care.

If you don't think it matters, if you're not interested and if you don't care and if you think the challenges lay elsewhere then let me decide this 'small' part of the business and let me decide what price to sell a book to my customers at.

And as for dealing with the challenges laid down by the internet and electronic delivery, that's your problem not mine (but it becomes mine when you set prices for the internet and not high street sellers). We've tried to address the internet conundrum but our customers have repeatedly told us the reason they shop here is because they like the shop, us and more importantly, browsing. The internet just isn't an important competitor for us, as in the location we're in there are enough customers out there who still enjoy the physical act of 'going to the shops'

But, whether my colleagues reading this agree with my position or not I think they'll all agree that your dismissive, evasive and unhelpful comments have been quite illuminating in an altogether different way. IMVHO

Adam Powell

8/21/2006 2:08:15 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

The abolition of the net book agreement in which I played a part does allow you to fix your own price. The RRP is there for reasons of authors' royalties as much as anything.

I think you're being really unfair. I try to answer things. I try to tell the truth. If you think I'm dismissive, evasive and unhelpful I am sorry. If you think I'm a bean counter you're very mistaken. And if you think I only care about mega millions just check with anyone in Macmillan or anyone who knows me.

richard charkin

8/21/2006 3:56:27 PM (GMT Standard Time, UTC+00:00)

Hi Richard, looks like it falls to me to play "good cop" for a change...

It's nothing personal, just a few comments from the coal face as June Formby might have put it.

Here is a question for you though. Why, after eight months and two phone calls to Macmillan, have we still not seen or heard from a Macmillan rep?

We enjoy great relationships with many small publishers but also with Penguin, Random House and Collins, all of whom keep us up to date with new titles etc even though we account for a minute fraction of their business.

Can you get a rep to call us this week? If so I will be personally satisfied you DO care about us little guys.

cpmatthew

Welcome

This is it. I am officially entering the blogosphere. This is not a Macmillan blog, but Macmillan will certainly feature heavily. The idea is that when we need to share anything from company strategy through news, to talk about new ideas or to help us learn from our successes and our mistakes, we can all blog about it here. This means no more email newsletters from me. Instead, you can read (and blog) all about it here. And don't forget to bookmark this page and to let colleagues know all about it.

The broader the audience the more effective this blog becomes.

And it becomes a lot more interesting if you join the conversation... so don't be shy.

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